Sub diameter tools, general aspects.

The techniques sub diameter tool, try to solve some of the problems that arise with the use of the full-diameter at the time when the size or the curvatures of the optical surface of the work, assume limit values ​​in which standard techniques can be ineffective or difficult to apply or even, in some cases, counterproductive.

We can summarize the main cases in which it is preferable to use a sub-diameter:

  • machining of large diameters ( beyond 50 cm.)
  • optical configurations of large focal opening ( f2-f4)
  • hyperbolic and elliptic curves
  • small interventions of correction zonal optical surface.

Generally we speak of sub-diameter in the moment in which the tool has a smaller diameter than the mirror in machining of at least 40 %.

A tool to 70-80 % the diameter-mirror, It has indeed, a not very different action from that of the full diameter and, in most cases, It can also replace throughout the full diameter with similar results in the application of techniques.

In reality, for a general overview, it would be more correct to speak of several tools at the sub-diameter over a same optical production, chosen with sizes ranging from 10% to a 60 % depending on the type of work that we are going to make, or if we want to, depending on the type of action that we intend to apply our mirror.

Before going into the details of the action exerted by the sub-diameter, we highlight some of the main differences immediately apparent from an initial analysis of the two types of tools.

We said what are the processes in which it is preferable to the use of sub-diameter, However, nothing forbids us to use a tool also reduced for the workings “classical”.

For example, suppose you want to perform the polishing of a mirror 300 f5 with a tool at the sub-diameter and make some considerations:

  • During a stroke with a sub-diameter, mirror surface on which the abrasive action is exerted, It decreases quadratically with respect to the linear decrease of the diameter. It is easy to realize that in order to remove or polish the same amount of materiare with a tool to 50% will take time 4 times larger than the full diameter, for a sub-tool to 30% it will take time 9 times greater, and so on.
  • A polishing, or even a spherical surface made with a sub-diameter will inevitably lead to elongation of processing times, not only, also the consumption of the patina, and thus its maintenance, increase accordingly in the same proportion .
  • To make matters worse, that we work “at the same instant” only a portion of the surface, It makes it more difficult to achieve a smooth shape as the sphere, as it is more difficult to achieve a processing “symmetric” in which the tool exerts its action the same number of times and with the same intensity on the entire surface of the mirror in a uniform manner.
  • Though “the law of large numbers” sooner or later he is able to take over and to standardize the processing, it is not unlikely that the use of sub-ports in diameter correction phase, which do not require large amounts of sessions, the appearance of zonal errors as a result of a non-uniform processing.

We summarize thus also disadvantages to sub-diameter tool.

  • lengthening processing times
  • difficulty in achieving regular figures
  • appearance of zonal errors
  • increased pitch consumption/deterioration .

 

BUT THEN, WHY’ USE A SUB-DIAMETER ?

Certainly not to solve the processing steps where the full diameter demonstrates its effectiveness , to see in action the sub-diameter must leave the field of play”classic” and go away, on multiple fields “hostile” where the normal techniques go “breathlessness” and fail to fulfill their potential.

In other words, with the sub-diameter, we must change the prerequisite, the approach to work is fundamentally different: We should not try to create a smooth surface ( as with the full diameter) relying on the regularity of the process but we must create “controlled errors” on the surface that once they return uniformed figure sought.

To realize better than these features try to see how it acts the sub-diameter.

  1. whatever it is the diameter of the sub-tool, processing with longitudinal-tangential races generates a circular crown , a low pressure area whose extension is slightly less than the diameter of the tool, while the radial races are generally ineffective.
  2. The diameter tool does not change the result of the processing but only the extension of the treated area.
  3. The application of pressure It is very effective because the weight is concentrated on a small portion of the mirror surface and then, although in general the abrasion and the regularization of the total area requires much more time with the sub-diameter, the “excavation” small circular sectors takes place very quickly, in other words , to dig a real “chasm” concentrated in a mirror area with the sub-diameter just only a little’ of … carelessness !
  4. the “localized pressure” , or the application of the weight on the tool at a point which is not necessarily the central, It allows to address the greater intensity of the excavation with great precision, exactly where we want it to go.

try to clarify with the graphic examples.

TOOL 30%, PRESSURE CENTER, TANGENTIAL STROKE ON OUTDOOR AREA:

In this case, the abrasive action is mainly localized in the tool center, as a result we have a circular crown depressed compared to the rest of the surface whose extension is slightly lower than the sub-diameter.

Being the center of the area “excavated” relative to the adjacent zones, as a result we will have an increase of the curvature in that sector .

The areas in red on the graph represent the place where the major action tool, areas in yellow are partly covered and constitute the “junction” green areas in which instead are not affected by the action of the races.

slide1

TOOL 30%, PRESSURE LOCATED AT THE EDGE , TANGENTIAL STROKE ON OUTDOOR AREA

in this case the abrasive action is more pronounced toward the edge, the resulting circular sector will have a depth, and then a non-symmetrical curvature . The greater depth will be in the vicinity of the edge, the remaining area will be fitting with the remaining surface. It should be noted that the outermost part of the edge remains little affected by processing.

slide2

AN EXAMPLE OF PRACTICAL APPLICATION

Suppose we have divided our mirror 5 areas according to the criteria of Couder or Texereau, and having to intervene on the zone No. 3, which turns out to be “high” compared to the other which, still have “measure” and should not be modified.

In this case we will use a sub-diameter whose extension is of the order of magnitude from that of the work area, the trajectory on which to apply the races will be the one delimited by the extension of the area 3 and we apply the pressure at the center according to the procedures of races previously described.

The result you will get should not be very different from the graphical representation:

If we want to make sure that the processing does not interfere with one of the adjacent areas , we can take advantage of the localized pressure to more accurately define the radius of action of the races:
in the example below using the same sub-diameter to 20% with pressure to the edge so as not to interfere with the outer zones.

slide4

These early examples of use of the sub-diameter serve to highlight the different approaches to the construction of an optical surface. Numerous techniques and different types of use of the same have been developed and can be applied in addition to those described.

Even races “classical” COC or radial races for the parabolizzazione “W” They are commonly used depending on the circumstances in which they can prove to be profitable.

What unites the different techniques with sub-diameter is that it generates a depressed area compared to the rest of the surface, which can serve to increase or decrease the performance of the curvature of our figure in processing. The application of different races and pressure can cause us to determine where and how we are going to create the depressed sector.

Comments (5)

  1. Avatar

    fulvio_

    Good morning,
    I understand that the use of the sub-diameter involves the advantage of targeted processing, but drawbacks related to the possible appearance of zonal errors (you believe it is the most important contraindication).
    I read from the article that the sub-diameter should be used for diameters greater than 50 cm. However, I would kindly like to know, operationally, up to what diameter (and for focal lengths “relatively comfortable” f4-f/5) the use of FULL DIAMETER is really sufficient for all processing phases of a parabolic mirror.
    I was thinking of a 16″.

    I take this opportunity to congratulate you on the splendid site and on the work made available to us readers.

  2. Massimo Marconi

    Massimo Marconi

    Good morning Fulvio, for sub-diameters it is exactly as you say, the advantage offered by the possibility to intervene with precision in any area of ​​the surface, in a targeted manner e “surgical” it is linked to the inconvenience of the probability of generating zonal errors or processing asymmetries.

    However, by performing the techniques correctly and taking care to often check the functionality of the whole set-up ( patina adaptation and hardness etc. ) that the results of the sessions, the probability of generating asymmetry errors is almost nil, while that of generating zonal errors is inherent in the processing itself, precisely because only some areas are worked independently from the others. Any intervention with sub-diameter generates a “mistake” compared to the original figure. The task of the grattavetro is precisely to control this error according to the geometry to be achieved ( parabola, hyperbole, ellipse )

    Based on mine (still unripe) experience, I have seen that an F5 works without difficulty with a full diameter. from this point on, decreasing the focal ratio, at the same time the need for the sub-diameter increases.

    If for a large mirror, the need for the sub-diameter is given by the dimensions and therefore by the weight and by the difficulty of making and handling a tool 50 cm and over, for the discourse on the focal ratio the motivation is different:

    A parabola less than or equal to F4 has a difference between the radii of curvature between edge and center which create difficulties in adapting to the full diameter tool. Practically, unlike what happens in the sphere, you will not have full contact with the patina however you move the tool on the mirror, in some areas there will be a peripheral contact, in other central until, in the long run, the tool will adapt to the shape of the mirror only in a median circular crown. This semi-adaptation generates the difficulty up to the impossibility of building a correct figure with full diameter for short and very short focal lengths.

    Here then is that the solution is to reduce the contact surface between patina and mirror to a fraction of the latter, so that the difference between the radii of curvature in a small portion of the surface is within the adaptability of the patina.

    The fundamental condition for any technique with any tool to lead to the expected result is in full contact between the two surfaces, failing this, the outcome of the work session will lead to results other than those expected and therefore to unexpected zonal errors.

    Then, to answer the question , a 16″ F4.5 is a mirror that resides in a “border area”, it could be worked either way, as the dimensions still allow to build and move a full diameter tool and the radii of curvature could still be within the adaptation capacity of the patina. Which is preferable ? the choice is between a faster but less precise and correctable processing and a more precise one, but slower and more risk of unexpected events.
    The solution that I would adopt in this case is to work it with full, keeping a tool close at hand 30% to intervene when needed, especially in the final touches.

    Thanks for the compliments Fulvio, our compliments with extended thanks to all who contribute, with comments and posts, to spread this passion on these pages.

  3. Avatar

    fulvio_

    Thanks for the reply, Maximum.
    Your opinion regarding my doubt is substantially in line with that expressed by Giulio T. (su dobsoniani).
    Thank you. :good:
    As a regular reader of this “informative space”, I can only congratulate you.
    The merit is above all for having organized the contents in such a way “didactic”, with structured and specific articles. What takes time and mental energy, I presume.
    In the various forums you have to go in search of the contents of interest, often spread in unrelated threads, with the risk of getting lost.
    Furthermore, is not often aware of the degree of preparation of the person who expresses a certain opinion.
    Here instead, the articles are written by a few users, and with full knowledge of the facts.
    I add that the information that can be obtained here, they do not simply relate to the realization of the optics itself, but also to fundamental questions of astronomical optics. Which I personally appreciate very much.
    I would say you are (you should be) a reference point. Especially for those who don't chew their tongues, since then in English there is some material (even if I don't think so well done and organized).
    Only sorry that the topic is “niche”, and that most readers (like Me) fails to make an effective contribution. If you don't get useful information (that will remain) from the questions asked of you a few expert users.
    Also sorry, read about some construction projects (dobson mirrors) started and never completed. I fear that the initial enthusiasm is not accompanied by a study of the subject and knowledge of one's limits (maybe even just temperamental) lead game strength to failure.
    PS. I am very curious to see how the trend will evolve (that you yourself are probing) aimed at small thicknesses and short focal lengths! I find some perplexities expressed in other rationally valid contexts. But I also think that if the overseas market is turning in that direction, with flowers of self-builders who try their hand at the realization, then it is the case to take note and “try” without preconceptions.

  4. Avatar

    fulvio_

    Return to this article regarding the use of the sub diameter.
    Reading another discussion (concerning a constructive report), I have a doubt that I would like to clarify.
    I do this in this session, not wanting to alter that discussion or disperse information.

    You experts “grattavetro” you tell us that the use of the sub diameter generates zonal errors.
    What I don't understand, But, which of the two is true:

    1. Zonal errors result from a usage “not correct” of the sub diameter. I can guess, for example, that strokes with a full diameter are simpler to accomplish in the way “correct”.
    It would be, then, to refine the TECHNIQUE (let me pass the term). A “glass scratcher” highly skilled could create a glass with the alternating use of full diameter and sub diameter “diffraction limited” on the first try (or in any case easily). Of course I am not referring to focal lengths below f / 4 and for ordinary diameters.

    2. The zonal error is intrinsic in the use of the sub diameter.
    It cannot be avoided because the mirror is worked on “zones”. It is a question of giving a blow to the circle and one to the barrel, evaluate the error and correct it. This is the art of “glass scratcher” expert.

    A consideration.
    I am reading many articles and discussions of this with interest “forum”, and I happen to have doubts (maybe fools) and ask.
    Well, I hope my request for clarification is not misjudged.
    As they say, asking is lawful and answering is courtesy.
    My questions are always asked with respect and education and without any claim to be answered!
    In this spirit, I will continue to express my observations.

  5. Massimo Marconi

    Massimo Marconi

    You are right Fulvio, the two statements seem contradictory but in reality they are not. So I will try to define the answer better, even if it is one of those things that is easier to experience than to theorize, starting from a consideration:

    A zonal error can only be defined with respect to a certain geometric reference figure.

    Saying zonal error without saying with respect to what obviously makes no sense. For example, Compared to a sphere, any sector that has a radius of curvature different from the others and therefore from the reference sphere, represents a zonal error.
    Similarly, a "perfect" parabolic mirror, it can be considered as such only with respect to a certain reference parabola and will be defective with respect to any other parabola or to the same sphere.
    So to build a parabolic mirror starting from a spherical mirror we will have to generate a deformation , a series of zonal errors ( compared to the starting sphere ) going to decrease the radii of curvature in the central area and increasing them at the edge, up to the reference parable . Let's see how:

    The sub diameter , during races, it acts only on a portion of the surface, therefore any activity you can imagine to do with this tool, will result in greater deformation in the areas most reached by the machining, compared to those less reached.
    Practically, each work session with the sub-diameter, consists in generating a zonal error with respect to the starting figure . The techniques suggest how to use the sub-diameter to have "controlled" deformations, that is, we know in advance how we must work to obtain an increase or decrease in the radius of curvature in a certain area rather than in another .
    In this sense it can be said that the zonal error is intrinsic and necessary in the processing with the sub-diameter.

    So far it's pretty simple , things get complicated when for a few reasons including:

    1-incorrect execution of the technique ( speed, trajectories, areas of application, machining asymmetries etc ... )
    2-suboptimal fit patina / mirror
    3-thermal changes in the environment
    4 excessive or insufficient pressure on the tool
    5 everything you never thought could happen to you on that day and hour.

    The result at the end of the session is not what we had expected. We will always find ourselves having generated a zonal error, only that it is different from what we wanted to generate and therefore to correct.

    In this sense we can also say that zonal errors ( compared to what we wanted to do ) result from an incorrect use of the sub-diameter .

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